Guidance and clearifcation.

by Ed A from NJ
(New Jersey)

I have long been a huge fan of this site. All you guys do for the rescue dogs and all the great information on this very royal breed. Of late I am a bit confused as to some of the positions taken.

My first is it seems one view on this page is if you want a good great Pyrenees you need to buy one for a breeder with breed papers. I strongly disagree I know for a fact there are many great Pyrenees out there from rescues and many are pure breed dogs. I take this personally because I have been lucky enough to have been blessed with 3 great Pyrenees rescues dog and every one was a pure breed dog that was an honor to own.

I can't see how anyone can take a position that you need to get registration papers to get a pure breed when there are so many beautiful Pyrenees out there needing a home. I understand we want to get the word out that back yard breeder are not the way to go but there are many honorable rescues trying to place very nice Pyrenees in good homes.

Why not be clear you need to understand you can get a great dog rescue and yes even a great Pyrenees at a reputable rescue. To me it all boils down to making sure your dealing with honest people and that is with or without registration papers. Allways try rescue first!

Another issue is neutering. Anyone who is telling you to neuter your giant breed dog at 6 months is just plan wrong! There is now way too much information available that it is extremely dangerous and unhealthy to do this to a giant breed dog. It also is unfair to both the breeders and the buyers. You open the dog up to many health problems which will later be blamed on the breeder and will cost the owner extra vet bill.

The truth is females after the first heat and males at 12 to 14 months. Less hip and joint problems, less incontinence in females, less cancer issues. You will still reap the rewards of neutering at this slightly older age and gain many positive health gains by waiting.

I understand the issue with "there are too many puppies in rescues to wait but your puppy can't breed if you control your dog. Ownership is all about responsibility! So why can't owners be responsible for keeping their dogs from breeding for and extra 6 months or so.

Misrepresentation is never a replacement for education! You can't promote rescue by telling people you need registration papers to get a good dog. You also can't care about puppies health by misrepresenting a healthy neuter age because you want to stop breeding when the puppies very health would be affected by early neutering.

If you truly love dogs educate, don't push prehistoric and proven wrong 6 month neutering there is way too much proof it hurts giant breed dogs. If this is wrong please enlighten me. I have had 3 wonderful Pyrenees from rescue! I have had no unwanted litters. I care about my dogs and over population. I just want to do it right.

Comments for Guidance and clearifcation.

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Mar 20, 2016
Clarification
by: Donna

You may disagree, Ed, but the fact is that the definition of a purebred is one that is registered with a recognized kennel club. Look it up.

They may be Pyrs but you can't call them purebred unless they come with papers.

We do get the occasional purebred into rescue because the breeder is no longer around.

If someone gets their Pyr from a reputable breeder, the breeder will advise them when to spay/neuter if there is no breeding contract.

You're absolutely right about spay/neuter too early. It will cause health issues later on.

Unfortunately, not everyone is like you, Ed. There are many irresponsible owners out there. I've talked to many. When I ask why they haven't spayed/neutered, if you can believe it, they tell me that the other person will have neutered/spayed their dog so it doesn't matter.

Some say their dog got another pregnant because he jumped the fence. It was an accident. That's not an accident.

Then, there are the pregnant abandoned mothers, puppies found in garbage bags, etc.

I'm glad you do it right, Ed. There would be no need for rescues and shelters and big fundraising events to pay for vet bills if everyone where like you.

Mar 23, 2016
Correction
by: Ed A from NJ

Donna I am sorry to tell you but you are wrong, the definition of pure breed is any animals breed from the same type or lineiage. You have given the definition of pedagree! So I say it again you can get a pure breed dog from a rescue! If you really are so in need of validation on your rescue DNA test are now available even from OFA.

Mar 27, 2016
Wrong
by: Anonymous

I'm sorry Donnna but your definition is wrong I looked it up and a "pure breed" is any dog of the same linkage or line of breed. It seems you confusetion is based on the word Pedagree. It seems that Ed is right on this one.

Mar 27, 2016
Pedigree
by: Donna

Perhaps talking to a breeder would help clarify any confusion. I've already spoken to one.

Here is a web link for information:

http://www.ckc.ca/en/Articles/Choosing-a-Dog/Ten-Questions-To-Ask-The-Breeder

Will the puppies be registered?

In Canada, all purebred dogs come with a Purebred Dog Certificate of Registration issued by The Canadian Kennel Club – without this certificate, they can’t legally be sold as purebred.

The certificate indicates, among other things, the dog’s registered name, breed and date of birth, as well as the names of the dog’s sire and dam.

The breeder is responsible for registering the puppy and forwarding the certifi-cate to the new owners within six months of the purchase date – they cannot charge additional fees for this service.

I suspect this goes for any recognized kennel club.

I, frankly, don't care if a dog has papers.

Apr 07, 2016
Not a legal authority
by: Ed A from NJ

I think that is exstreamly elitist buy the CKC. The first thing to remember is all dog registry's are "clubs" and not Legal authorities. Since they support the breeding industry it would benefit then to use such terms. I would have the same question of then. Do they permit puppy mill or puppy breeders who would fit into the definition of a mill to register there puppies. I would ask is the tibetin masstiff a pure breed? Since they have only been recognized by the AKC last year even though they are one of the oldest breeds on the planet was there no purebreds tibetin masstiff before then. Since the great Pyrenees was not allowed into the AKC until 1880s was there no Pyrenees before that? Where did the Tibetan Masstiffs come from to allow them in if they did not recognize them before now? It is beyond silly to think only a registered dog is a pire breed. If you believe this there is no pure breed dog over 130 years as that is when these clubs started popping up. Come on don't be silly they are just clubs. Looking to show authority they simply don't have. I personally don't like the elitisum they want to push. As far as I am concerned you want credablity make DNA testing part of every litter you let in. Then your doing at least something beside collecting dues.

Apr 07, 2016
Formal appoligy
by: Ed A from NJ

I have always loved the postings and fairness of this page. To find out that I myself have not been as fair upsets me.

As an American I forget that your laws are not the same as ours. When I see what your rescues and people are up against I better understand why Donna has different outlooks on things then I do.

Girl you are up against it in a big way. I just learned your government has no inspection laws for kennels and your animal laws have not been changed since 1890! With that being said I see why she is so adamant with her position. In which case I offer Donna my profoundest appoligy.

How ever I will stick to my original position. Which is the legal and honest definition of the words purebreds and pedigree. If the law in Canada is written that way in the resent Animal act that is fine but they truly are hurting there own club.

Apr 09, 2016
Don't be upset
by: Donna

Don't be upset, Ed. It's a mish mash and everyone has their own rules. I just want a healthy dog with a good disposition.

There are reputable breeders and not-so reputable breeders that come under the CKC (there is also another CKC but it stands for Continental Kennel Club and from what I have read, it is a puppy mill work around), AKC and whatever other kennel clubs in the world.

I have had emails with the AKC just for interest. This was their response to me:

Thank you for contacting the American Kennel Club.

The breeder must have two purebred dogs that are of the same breed that are registered and come from registered parent dogs and those dogs also come from registered dogs. We do not require pictures upon registration, but from time to time we do request picture copies of dogs registered with the AKC

Regarding registration of the dog: The only way you can register your dog with AKC is by completing the Dog Registration Application you get from the breeder . If you do not have the papers for the dog, you will not be able to register him/her with AKC. AKC does not register dogs that do not come from the AKC bloodline.

Regarding DNA: The DNA that AKC offers does not determine if the dog is purebred. The DNA tests that we offer determine if the dog is in fact from the correct bloodline. There may be other registries that have DNA kits that determine if the dog is purebred, but we do not offer those services.

Unfortunately, there is not much we will be able to do to prove the background of a dog that has no papers or proof of linage.

Jan 06, 2017
Something to consider
by: Linda

I am a huge proponent of rescue and I applaud people who choose to go this route.

I'd like to address proper genetic screenings ANY breeder should do prior to breeding. (1) at 24 months of age the potential "parents" should have hip x-rays (and possibly other screenings. The age is important because, if x-rays are performed earlier, the are considered preliminary and may not show genetic predispositions. (2) those x-rays should be submitted to the OFA (Orthopedic Foundationfor Animals) for evaluation. If you reside in another country, the official foundation may be different. If the hips are determined to be "normal" the dogs will be issued a registration number. This is proof that the parents have been screened prior to breeding (even if the breeder does everything right, there are still no guarantees, but the odds are much better that the breeding will produce healthy puppies. ----This is important to understand: I believe that only "registered" dogs (dogs with papers) can have the x-rays submitted to the OFA. If you know the registered name of the dog, you can check the OFA's website and see if the parents received a "normal" evaluation. If the parents are not registered, you would have no information about the genetics of the parents--unless the breeder had x-rays done and had them evaluated by a local radiologist. If the radiologist is reputable, I, personally, would feel confident with the evaluation. I want to make it clear that I am taking a neutral stance here. I am not proposing either of these types of breedings. I am simply sharing information about the due diligence anyone considering breeding dogs should do to try and maintain the health of the breed.

The second item is the proper age at which to spay and neuter. Many breeders have strong feelings on the issue and they share their opinions with buyers. Please remember that the majority of breeders are not veterinarians. PLEASE do not take the breeders recommendations as gospel. Please discuss this issue with your veterinarian and place the most weight on the recommendations of your medical professional. Any studies on this topic should be double-blind studies. Ask the breeder if he/she is basing their recommendation on legitimate, medical information (the results of double-blind studies) or simply anecdotal information. Over the years I have been surprised by how many people I have spoken with who do not ask questions of their veterinarians and use the opinions of one source (the breeder) to make important medical decisions.

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